The Mother Of All Smear Jobs
I mentioned the hit piece in Salon earlier. There have been a lot of people who have jumped on this one (Dan Riehl dug up some inconvenient information on the person Salon based the story on.) But the Allen campaign is really hitting back on this one. They are saying the whole thing is originating from the Webb campaign. I have no idea if that particular charge is true, but there is something very, very ugly about how this stuff keeps getting into play. Read the point by point from Allen's campaign. Then go read Dan Riehl's information.
This one is really very ugly. We are seeing some very, very nasty stuff in this election cycle. We really do not need this.
UPDATE: And now it's become trying to put the smoke back into the bottle. AP has picked up the allegations by Shelton. The also printed Allen's vehement denials, but this kind of ugliness is already out there now.
UPDATE: Others: Captain Ed, Powerline, Beltway Blogroll, Decision '08, STACLU, Redstate, Ace of Spades,
Blogosphere, Media, Politics | Gaius Monday, 25 September , 2006
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 12:43 pm
Hello, Gaius. Let me be the first to draw an obvious parallel with the decades-old charges against Allen. You seem to be generally supportive of the efforts of the Swift Boat Veterans both in their original smear campaign against John Kerry as in the current kerfuffle with John Murtha. What’s the difference? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, is it not?
We can either decry such tactics as uniformly undignified and demeaning, or we can accept them as legitimate no-holds-barred hard-ball politics. But we can’t have it both ways.
By Gaius, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 12:50 pm
The situations are not equivalent, please don’t try to conflate the two. What you have here is one person making completely unsubstantiated charges. Many of which have instantly been proven laughably false.
Frankly I do not care about the Swift Boat veterans. Never did.
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:06 pm
Gaius, I read your statements about Swift Boat Veterans as being unequivocally supportive, and nowhere did I see you decry their tactics. Here are a couple of posts of yours for example:
“Headlines like this one bug me. It’s really an unfortunate choice of words: “Vets Set Sights on Murtha”. Mind you, I agree with the group’s [Swift Boat Veterans] sentiments, as any long term reader knows. I detest John Murtha and make no secret of it.†–Aug 1, 2006
“. . . it would be interesting to see the Kerry defenders trying to address substantive issues like Lipscomb raises instead of just flinging the “they’re lying” charges all over again. All Kerry has to do is allow his records to be examined if he wants to put this issue to bed once and for all, right?†–June 5, 2006
[Note -- Lipscomb wrote a blog piece reiterating the Swift Boat group’s charges against Kerry, attempting to discredit a story in the New York Times that refuted the charges.]
The charges against Allen were, as I understand, made by three different individuals. If we accept the premise that the Swift Boat Veterans deserved an answer from the Kerry campaign on their charges, shouldn’t we, for the sake of fairness, also be asking the same from Allen?
By Gaius, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:09 pm
Let’s see, I agree with the group not liking Murtha. I say all Kerry has to do if he wants to disprove them is release his records. And that’s unequivcable support to you?
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:17 pm
So would you say, then, that the Swift Boat group’s original campaign against Kerry was unfair?
By Gaius, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:22 pm
Bob, what the heck are you sidetracking like this for? This has nothing to do with the post.
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:29 pm
Not willing to go out on a limb on this one? I think it’s important, if we are going to hold one side to a certain standard of conduct, as in the Allen case, that we are obligated to be fair and consistent in insisting on the same set of standards for all parties. The right wing has made great use of smear campaigns against their political enemies, as they did against John McCain in the 2000 primaries, and did again against John Kerry in the runup to the 2004 election through the proxy group Swift Boat Veterans. It is entirely relevant to Allen’s case if one is going to make an issue of it.
By Gaius, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:39 pm
This is going to be my last comment. You are conflating things. There is absolutely no equivalence to making a vicious, race-baiting attack of this nature with anything else. This is beyond the pale. This is pretty close to the worst possible charge you can lay against someone short of felony murder. The standard for even reporting something like this, because of the inflammatory nature, should be astronomically high.
I have a general dislike of having other people’s words and actions thrown at me with a demand that I either defend or repudiate them, Bob. If you have an issue with others, take it to them. Don’t throw it at me.
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Gaius, I think it’s hypocritical to condemn the attacks against Allen when one is unwilling to do so against a group like the Swift Boaters. Let me say categorically that I disapprove of both the Swift Boat attacks against Kerry and Murtha, because they were unfair and defamatory, as I do with the Salon charges against Allen. I think smear tactics demean and pollute our political discourse. Besides, Allen has provided enough evidence of his character in recent weeks, and I think the election should hinge on the way a candidate is today–it shouldn’t be necessary to go back decades to dig up dirt on someone.
By Dan, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 2:08 pm
I support George Allen’s mother for President, even if he doesn’t likeher because she’s Jewish.
By syn, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 2:31 pm
First it was Gullani who was Hilter, then it was Bush who was Hitler and now if elected Allen’s mother will be deemed Hilter.
(Dan, it’s a joke)
By Quilly Mammoth, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 2:57 pm
So many fallacies, so little time. The Swift Boat group had been making their charges publicly for almost three decades. OTOH, Allen has been a State representative, a Congressman, a Governor and a Senator and now this comes forward?
The Salon article quotes one man as saying these tings happened. Yet over the years vets who, at the time, were not affiliated with the Swift Boat vets would speak out. And so on.
The fact is, Bob, that bereft of ideas the Democrat Party has resorted to a smear campaign with the most ephemeral of facts. Someone decided that the “Macaca†comment could be used to good effect…the vast left wing noise machine has swung into action and as per usual are not willing to let a few little things like the facts stand in the way of a good smear job.
And when the other side complains folks like Bob pop out to inject some detestable form of moral equivalency. Therefore, because the Swift Boat Vets questioned John F’n Kerry the most baseless forms of slander against Allen cannot be questioned.
By Donna, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 3:30 pm
Yeah, Quilly, moral equivalencies are certainly detestable. Only one side has the ‘morality’ to feel righteous about smearing others . Must be your side, eh?
By Black Jack, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 3:31 pm
The Swift Boat Vets made serious accusations about John Kerry’s activities in Vietnam, some have been proved accurate, like Kerry’s fairy tale of being under fire during Christmas in Cambodia, an experience which was “seared in his memory. That it didn’t happen hasn’t made much of an impact on Kerry, or on guys who willingly swallow his lies and smear honorable men. Kerry’s been telling that phony war story for the last 25 years or so, and every single word of it is pure poppycock.
The truth is Kerry’s yet to answer the Swifties charges with facts. Although, Kerry, the NY Times, most of MSM, and spinners, like you Bob, have smeared the Swift Boat Vets and defended Kerry, yet all the while its been Kerry who’s been withholding the pertinent records which would reveal who’s telling the truth and who’s not.
Kerry hems and haws, releases some of his records but not the ones in question, he lies, he dissembles, he gets others to smear his opponents, but the one thing he doesn’t do is come clean.
Has he ever explained why the dates are off on his discharge? Why not, that should be a simple matter to clear up, unless he’s got something to hide?
No, Bob, it was John Kerry who smeared a generation of Vietnam Vets in his Senate testimony, and it was John Kerry who lied about throwing his decorations over the White House wall, and it was John Kerry who lied about being present when the assassination of a US president was discussed, and it was John Kerry who lied about where he got his “magic hat”, and it was John Kerry who couldn’t remember his wife owned the SUV he was driving, and it was John Kerry who blamed the Secret Service when he fell off his own snowboard.
No, Bob, the smear campaign has John Kerry’s fingerprints all over it, for Kerry the smears are a way of life, it’s how he operates, and everyone who’s paying attention knows it. Neither John Kerry, nor his wife’s money, nor partisan sycophants, nor bullies like you are capable of putting Humpty Dumpty back together again.
By Quilly Mammoth, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 3:48 pm
Ah, Donna, that would be where you’d be wrong. See this post where I shred Lipscomb’s claims of a dishonorable discharge against Kerry.
http://justbarkingmad.com/?p=39
You see, I try to pick the side of truth. It makes life easier. Without a bit more facts than a The Nation article that uses nameless sources and a Salon article which uses only one I’m not seeing the facts…yet. I would say unless The Nation and Salon has the sort of credible sources the Swifties had it’s a smear job.
That’s teh difference between legitimate questioning and smear tactics. The number and reliability of sources.
BTW: When are they going to Frog March Rove? Wasn’t the left abuzz with nameless sources claiming “any day now”? Like I said…as per usual…….
By Ed, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 5:39 pm
Gaius,
As I said earlier today, where there’s smoke there’s fire and another stong plume has just gone up.
Larry Sabato, not a left partisan, just came on Hardball and told Matthews that Allen is lying when he says he never used th N word and basically admitted that he’s heard Allen use it himself.
It may be all over but the counting.
By Gaius, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 6:22 pm
I’m not convinced, Ed. There are a couple of things that make this highly questionable. Timing is one. The fact that many teammates, as opposed to one activist with an ax to grind, have come forward - on the record - to deny the story. The sleazoid publication with a single source with so-called “anonymous” sources verifying. I’d say the smoke is not exactly what you are making it out to be.
There’s smoke, but it ain’t coming from Allen.
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 7:24 pm
I’m sorry, Quilly and Black Jack, but there’s one simple word to describe your selective ire: hypocrisy. The right wing has made character assassination their bread and butter. And just like they did when the sanctimonious philanderers like Gingrich, Livingston and Hyde, who impeached Bill Clinton just before their own sordid sex lives were made public, so too have the Swift Boat Chickens for Truth come home to roost in George Allen’s belfry. I’ve already said unequivocally that I disapprove of smear campaign tactics, but I have to admit to a certain degree of schadenfreude in seeing the ridiculous spectacle of right wingers now complaining about cheap tactics that they themselves made an art form.
By Black Jack, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 8:15 pm
Bob, the Swift Boat Vets are proud men who have served their country with honor and distinction, yet you call them ugly names while you get down on your knees in worship to a false god. You say you disapprove of smear tactics while you smear better men than yourself. You are the hypocrite here, and here in this place, at this time, you exemplify all you claim to deplore.
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 8:26 pm
Black Jack, I’m just looking for some consistent principles among Republican supporters, and finding none as usual. Either condemn smear tactics across the board, or accept them as hard-ball politics. You can’t have it both ways.
By Quilly Mammoth, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 8:33 pm
Yes, Bob, and it’s yours. It isn’t schadenfreude when the object who is suffering is doing so because of lies. There isn’t much case against Allen. But. Like it or not many of the Swift Boaters claims have proven to be true.
Moreover, your phrase “Swift Boat Chickens for Truth” shows that not only are you petty, but that you simply haven’t a clue as to what servicemembers do. Like much of your ilk you childishly think that demeaning language proves your point…exactly what you accuse Allen of. There’s a German phrase for that as well: Psychologische Projektion
By Black Jack, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 9:15 pm
Bob, you said, “Either condemn smear tactics across the board, or accept them as hard-ball politics. You can’t have it both ways.”
I’m not trying to have it both ways Bob, and I’m not going to get down in the hole you’re in. I’m saying the Swift Boat Vets told the truth about John Kerry and he responded with double talk, lies, and smears. Exactly the same as you.
Bob, you have yet to refute a single charge the Swifties made, although you have repeatedly claimed without a shred of evidence they smeared Kerry, when in fact the exact opposite is actually the case. Read your own comments above, they tell the tale on you.
Your silly accusations have gotten boring, repetitious, and tiresome. There’s just no sense in kicking a dead horse. I’m not buying your claptrap, and you haven’t offered anything at all to change my mind.
By Bob, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 11:04 pm
Quilly, I’m sure that you wouldn’t appreciate my attempt at humor in any case, but the Swift Boat Chickens comment was intended to denote the old metaphor of chickens coming home to roost. As in, starting a trend that may one day blow up in one’s own face. Going back as far as Richard Nixon, the Republicans have consistently pushed the envelope on “negative” campaign tactics. So now, everyone is apparently doing it. I think it’s unfortunate, and I don’t like to see it.
My whole point here was to see if I could get some agreement with Republican supporters, now that they see the same thing happening to one of their own candidates, that all of these sort of campaigns–whether it be the Clinton impeachment, the Swift Boat fabrications against Kerry or these ages-old charges against Allen–are to be regretted. What I find instead is that you still want to have it both ways. You applaud the same tactics when your side does it that you then turn around and complain about when the other side does it. It’s hypocrisy plain and simple. And you don’t even have the fairness or the decency to acknowledge it, even though I bet on some level you know it’s true.
By Donna, Monday, 25 September , 2006 @ 11:26 pm
Quilly, you used the German phrase, Pschologische Projektion, to label Bob whom you say ‘childishly thinks that demeaning language proves a point’.
Ok, Quilly. When I read the link you kindly offered me, I noticed that you referred to John Kerry as ‘John F’n Kerry’ and then you referred to President Carter by saying, “Jimmy Carter, freak that he is…’ Did your demeaning language prove your point? Is your own use of demeaning language the basis of your understanding of ‘pschologische projektion’? Maybe, since you are so certain of being always on the side of truth, you could tell me why you yourself use demeaning language.
By Dan, Tuesday, 26 September , 2006 @ 8:20 am
I’ve got to say, I find Gaius award of this smear as “The Mother of All Smears” to be a bit cavalier.
The genius smear of McCain in the 2000 primary was legendary. Throwing the Webb campaign this kind of bone seriously diminishes all the hard work that Karl Rove put into destroying McCain’s presidential hopes. The fact that no one can prove it’s Rove only adds to the myth and the legend. Rove, the boy genius, should be properly praised and awarded. If he hadn’t acted, we might have had 6 years of bi-partisanship and cooperation as McCain reached across the aisle to address issues. Thank god that never happened.
By Norman Walker, Tuesday, 26 September , 2006 @ 11:43 am
I think the attack on George Allen is also directed at Republican voting southerners. The alleged fondess of the Confederate flag that Allen had during his college days keeps being brought up. Is that supposed to suggest that Allen (and southerners) are racist in 2006? The rebel flag decal that is occasionally seen, IMHO only denotes regional pride, and perhaps fiestyness.
Most of the pre 60’s anti civil rights people are gone now. Southeners main problem, from the liberal point of view, is that they are patriotic, conservitive and Republican.
By Quilly Mammoth, Tuesday, 26 September , 2006 @ 10:26 pm
Donna babbles:
The simple answer is that I wasn’t doing that to prove a point, as Bob was. Bob called the Swift Boat Veterans “Chickens” to demean their service. Which is demonstrably false.
You took my comments out of context as well.
In 2005, when the post you reference was written, Sen. Kerry took to dropping the “f-bomb” with regularity. Hence the moniker John F’n Kerry. True and accurate. Moreover, I wasn’t using the mocking of Kerry to prove my point. In that post I was defending Sen. Kerry.
When I said “Jimmy Carter, freak that he is…” I wasn’t commenting on Carter. Rather I was saying that even as whacked as Carter is he wouldn’t have done something so egregiously wrong as cover a Dishonorable Discharge for Kerry. Again not proving a point on Carter by calling him names.
Yet Bob tries to impugn the Swift Boat vets by calling them “chicken”. The two cases are not morally equivalent. No matter how you twist things to try and make them so.
And if you don’t get the reference of the German all I can say is that Gaius doesn’t have the bandwidth, and I don’t have the time, to educate you.
By Bob, Tuesday, 26 September , 2006 @ 10:51 pm
Quilly, do you even bother to read what people post, so quick to rush to condemnation as you seem to be? I told you the “Chicken” comment referred to chickens coming home to roost and had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone’s military service. Not that it really matters anyway. The Swift Boat people squandered any honor they might have earned through their military service by becoming flying monkeys for Karl Rove. Real men don’t deal in cheap shots.