The Problems With A Lot Of The Glib Answers

Longtime readers know that I have a background in the electric power industry. I have pointed out the problems with the pie in the sky, money from nothing reasoning that a lot of people use to promote wind power. (Then had major media outlets that are not exactly noted for their conservative views vindicate what I had written not long after I started this blog).

Now Donald Sensing has taken a hard, number crunching look at the myths surrounding ethanol. The results are not pretty for that particular boondoggle.

Transporting E85 will require diesel fuel and lots of it. That aside, replacing 109 ounces of gasoline per gallon with ethanol results in less usable energy than 128 ounces of of plain gasoline. Because of the inherent system costs of growing and transporting ethanol, simply comparing the fuel economy of flexible-fuel vehicles using ethanol with that of plain gasoline vehicles yields an incomplete, hence incorrect, answer of whether E85 is more efficient than plain gas. But it's still informative to compare the energy and economy of a gallon of gas with a gallon of E85 once they are in the consumer's fuel tank. Wikipedia reports,

E85 has an octane rating of 105, which is higher than typical commercial gasoline mixtures (octane ratings of 85 to 98); however, it does not burn as efficiently in traditionally-manufactured internal-combustion engines. Additionally, E85 contains less energy per volume as compared to gasoline. Although E85 contains only 72% of the energy on a gallon-for-gallon basis compared to gasoline, experimenters have seen slightly better fuel mileage than the 28% this difference in energy content implies. For example, recent tests by the National Renewable Energy Lab on fleet vehicles owned by the state of Ohio showed about a 25% reduction in mpg [1] (see table on pg 5) comparing E85 operation to reformulated gasoline in the same flexible fuel vehicle. Results compared against a gasoline-only vehicle were essentially the same, about a 25% reduction in volumetric fuel economy with E85.]]

Car and Driver magazine reports,

We did a comparison test of two fuels, regular gasoline (87 octane) and E85 (100 to 105 octane). Our test vehicle was a flex-fuel 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe 4WD LT powered by a 5.3-liter V-8 hooked to a four-speed automatic transmission.

Their result?

[T]he fuel economy on E85 was diminished more than 30 percent in two of the three tests, about what we expected. The EPA’s numbers suggest that fuel economy worsens by 28 percent on E85 compared with regular gas. On any Tahoe equipped with a 5.3-liter V-8, the E85 flex-fuel feature is a no-cost option, but running E85 reduces the driving range from roughly 390 miles a tank to about 290.

So why are automakers jumping feet first into producing E85-burning vehicles? Because for meeting federal CAFE standards, ' the government counts only the 15-percent gasoline content of E85."

"But," one may well respond, "the real measure for fuel efficiency as far as the consumer is concerned is not miles per gallon achieved, but the cost per mile driven." So, even if ethanol fuel does result in fewer miles per gallon, are those miles less costly each than those driven using only gasoline?

He has a lot more over there and I would urge people interested in the energy debates howling right now to take a good, hard look at what he says. One of the big problems with trying to explain some of these things to true believers is that they start from the middle, so to speak. The proponents of ethanol completely neglect the energy required to produce the corn (or whatever crop is used) in the first place. There is also a complete silence on what effect the loss of all the corn as food will do to the world's hungry.

The same with wind power. There is never an accounting for the energy required to produce the equipment used to produce the energy. A lot of these supposed savings these various "solutions" will produce are illusory. Can they be of some use? Certainly. Are they a silver bullet? Well, let's put it this way. They just made an all solar house. Most people won't think the $500,000 price tag is a good, cost efficient solution. (Even reduced to $100,000, the costs exceed the GDP of the US to make a total conversion of every house in the US).

Go over and read all of what the good reverend wrote.

UPDATE: Here's another thing to consider. The US Department of Agriculture's Economic Research Service has a lot of data on crops grown in the US and on consumption of those crops. Here's what they say about corn:

Corn is the most widely produced feed grain in the United States, accounting for more than 90 percent of total value and production of feed grains. Around 80 million acres of land are planted to corn, with the majority of the crop grown in the Heartland region. Most of the crop is used as the main energy ingredient in livestock feed. Corn is also processed into a multitude of food and industrial products including starch, sweeteners, corn oil, beverage and industrial alcohol, and fuel ethanol. The United States is a major player in the world corn trade market, with approximately 20 percent of the corn crop exported to other countries. ERS analyzes events in the domestic and global corn markets that influence supply, demand, trade, and prices.

Some projections put around 50% of the US crop going to ethanol production. Who is going to starve? How much more will your food cost? How much more will meat cost because feed prices rise dramatically? Wheels within wheels, folks. There are a lot of things not being considered at all by the advocates of single solutions to complex issues.

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9 Responses to The Problems With A Lot Of The Glib Answers

  1. Sweet Land Of Liberty says:

    Since you are in the energy industry:

    Re “There is never an accounting for the energy required to produce the equipment used to produce the energy.”

    I am curious – so how much is that to build wind turbines?
    And how does that compare with how much it costs to build an equivalent nuke plant (equivalent output of say 1000 megawatts) and how much it costs to build an equivalent coal plant?

    Do you think geothermal is a possibility?

  2. Gaius says:

    http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba467/

    The rule of thumb calc is that wind facilities are available about 30% of the time (much less in some areas, a bit more in others) and must have 100% backup power available at all times. That is instantly available power, too. And those wind farms are very, very ugly. (If you think otherwise, petition for one where you live and see how it goes over with the neighbors.)

    Geothermal may have some use in some areas but actually is really a lot more limited than a lot of people think. It is a very, very expensive way to make power in most areas.

  3. OldeForce says:

    Unfortunately, most folks driving down the road will look at only the price of the E85 – if it’s cheaper, they’ll buy it. My truck will take E85, and on my [usually] two yearly round-trips from Colorado to the east coast I’ll find the occasional station. I do an automatic, “Is the price difference more than 25%?”, before I make a purchase. [Side note: my wife's more fuel-efficiant car requires premium grade; the truck runs on the cheapest blend. It was cheaper to run the truck cross-country last summer. Yeah, I know, we weren't being environmentally aware. Screw it! We have a mortgage and a kid in college.]
    As to wind farms: what happens to the wind after it goes through the fan blades? It has to slow down [laws of physics], so what happens to everything [no pun intended] down wind? Won’t there be changes in weather? There’s a family member who has background in this, and he believes that there are any number of factors that the public is not aware of, least of all the cost. [Here in CO we can chose to use wind power, if we will accept a higher price for the power.]
    Enjoy your blog – it’s in my top 10 to check every day.

  4. Sweet Land Of Liberty says:

    Thks. Too bad, I guess wind sounds like not an option for bringing clean energy home if they are down 30 % of the time.

    (As a parent with an asthmatic kid I can sure stand that they merely wreck someones view, however!) I am really concerned that we really need to find some way to get clean home grown (good ol US) electricity.

    Take a look at this Solar Tower idea:

    http://www.solarmissiontechnologies.com/project.htm

    What do you think?

  5. Sweet Land Of Liberty says:

    Also, what do you know about this:

    The other free clean energy source, Tesla explained
    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/6/125243/9626

    Is this a commercially viable source for clean energy?

  6. Gaius says:

    Well, it looks interesting, but you should be able to see a couple of problems. One is area required – that is a pretty big footprint for not a lot of power in the pilot. The second one is availablity. The pilot, in full operation mode, ran 8.9 hours a day. That’s a pretty big problem.

    They also say it is dispatchable power, but I don’t really see how they support that. It may be, but it is not readily apparent how it could be done. Conceptually, it looks like an on/off situation, not a load-following capable plant.

  7. Gaius says:

    Nice conspiracy theory. But it would be rather interesting to see how many laws of physics are violated.

    Couple things. Tesla, according to this source, did plan experiments, but primarily in telegraphy.

    http://www.tfcbooks.com/teslafaq/q&a_036.htm

    Second, if the concept as your diarist explains it, actually works, why hasn’t anyone done it? Why didn’t the Russians do it to destroy the Western economies during the Cold War? Why didn’t the Russians build these things and run Western economies right into the ground by being able to outcompete in energy?

    This is one of those conspiracy theories that sounds highly plausible to people who have little scientific or engineering backgrounds. “It’s just the man keeping you down.” Unfortunately, it’s more like the physical laws simply do not operate that way.

    Anybody who promises you something from nothing should be regarded with suspicion.

    And yes, Westinghouse did win the early electricity competitions over Edison’s General Electric but it had a lot to do with the transmission limitations of DC power versus the Westinghouse (Tesla engineered) AC. It wasn’t a struggle of the people versus the man. It was one industrial giant versus another.

  8. Sweet Land Of Liberty says:

    Too bad.